Podcast – Long Distance Gaming – Istanbul w/ John Borgese


Josh invites John Borgese of Odam Publishing to a a game he has never played before, and delights in John’s stunning defeat to the AI Ryan. Long live Skynet.Josh


Josh Hale 0:01
Hey all this is Josh with people gamers who has told you every single time that the transcription of this is going to tell you that we are evil gamers and that is just not true. So today we are on the horn with Jon Burge, AC of Odom publishing, who has produced all sorts of really cool stuff, and I’ll let him tell you about it in a minute. And we I am forcing john to play. The seminal favorite is 10 ball by ruediger Dorn published in the United States by ag is 10 bowl is a game where basically what you’re doing is you’re moving around and you are going to be

basically set collecting and trying to do it faster than anybody else. So john has never played

Istanbul before, which I find very hard to believe but he’s going to get to play now and I hope that he he wins but he’s probably not going to sorry, john. Her Tell us about your games.

John Borgese 0:59
Actually, I’ve always wanted to play assemble, I’ve just never gotten around to it. So many games. Nowadays, it’s hard to get to everything.

But about our games, autumn makes highly stylized, IP centric, or games have many variants and RPG,

We have a an RPG line that takes place in the modern world and then a board game adaptation of the same game. There’s also a high fantasy RPG and then there’s a board game adaptation of that as well. So the line is steadily growing.

Josh Hale 1:35
Okay, so right now it is your turn. And we all start on the Oh gosh, I forget the name of the restart on the fountain. And what you’re going to be doing is you’re going to be moving to a nother area of the board john. And when you do that, you’re going to end up dropping off one of your assistants. When you drop off the assistant, you’re going to be taking the action

That part of the board, obviously, we’re trying to get blue, orange, yellow, red, blue is the most rare resource, and everything else is the same. And you’re basically going to be building your cart, and you’re going to be trying to get rubies. What happens when you go around the board and do everything

is you’re going to be slowly building to a really fast end of game. It’s one of those games that you build and build and build and then all of a sudden, the game’s over before you can do your last turn. And you’re you get frustrated because well maybe that’s just my experience, I get frustrated, because I’m going to beat me.

And so right now you are read, my suggestion for where you are,

might be to take either the red or the green below us. So you would move your guy to the red or green.

If you go to the jail, you get to send your cousin out you’re getting your cousin bailed out. And he gets to go anywhere on the board and that’s in the top right. So the way the board is set up right now it’s a four by four, and the fountain is in the top left of the center. And we have the let’s see, the black market is top left. Care of answer is underneath. Spice warehouse underneath on the bottom of the small mosque. second column is the Sultan’s palace, which is a real hard one to get the fountain.

The fabric warehouse, the gemstone dealer. That’s basically where you just buy gemstones, you buy the game by just giving them money. It’s hard to do. But I’ve seen people win just buying gems. small market.

large market.

Wayne, right that’s where you make it so your your wagon can carry more stuff, which that’s always a thing I like to do. Underneath it is the Great Mosque. top right is the police station where obviously your cousin is spending an inordinate amount of time. Below that is the tea house where your cousin was probably gambling prior to going to the police station. Below that is the post office, which allows you to just get stuff and every time somebody takes stuff, it changes what stuff you get.

Ultimately, until it recycles. And the bottom right as the fruit warehouse, we are playing the original game. And john, you still need to take your turn, I thought you’re gonna do that. While I was talking. All I did was talk.

John Borgese 4:45
I think I did everything correctly.

Unknown Speaker 4:49
So maybe

Josh Hale 4:53
that’s okay. So john went down below to the fabric warehouse, which maxed out and fabric so he’s got to fabric and his card. Me Myself. Since he did that I my real only option, right this second is, I think to go to the spice warehouse to get spices. max out my cart on spices. Now, john, once it’s your turn, again, if you were to go to the spice warehouse, you have to pay me before you can go to the spice warehouse. And if you’re unable to pay me you can’t go.

John Borgese 5:31
I see. So there’s a little bit of like, opportunity blocking going on by your choices.

Josh Hale 5:36
Right. So where you are right now, john, I think I would very likely go to the small mosque because that does two things for you. One, it allows you to trade in your two reds to get the dice changing card. Or I guess card. The second thing it allows you to do is to either force me to pay you or force me need to go somewhere else. And I think if I were you, I might very well do that, in the hopes that you could prevent me from either going or to force me to pay you.

John Borgese 6:11
Now which tile is that? The speaking of

Josh Hale 6:14
a bottom left, you see where it has to read on top of it? Yes. Okay, so that is a card that allows you to change any dice to a four.

So that’s gonna matter. Like when you do the rolling for the blues, that’s also going to matter and the tea warehouse. So that’s a very good one to get right at the beginning. And I I honestly, that’s probably one of the things I would be doing if you hadn’t taken the red. I like it

John Borgese 6:50
sounds like a sound move. To me.

Josh Hale 6:52
It sounds like a move that I’m not particularly excited about you making.

I have to be honest, I don’t know that I like that you did.

With that being said, I think I’m just going to go back to where you were, rather than give you money, it gives me the opportunity to start building both of those.

And it’s going to force you out of there. And you Only you there’s really no great place for you to go right now.

So I I’ve got no opinion for you, I think it’s a wasted turn on your behalf.

I guess you could go to the green in the hopes that you could go back down and get the green card. But that is what my next move is going to be. So it’s going to cost you three. So I think your only real opportunity is maybe to go up to the caravan three, which is where the yellows at but then you’re gonna have to pay yellow.

Unknown Speaker 7:56

John Borgese 7:58
And so the idea now is that

You’re going to exchange gold with the other players as you use the spaces that they’re controlling. So you’ve got to pick and choose your moves wisely in that regard.

Josh Hale 8:09
Well, you are welcome to choose them unwisely.

Unknown Speaker 8:15
A butt kicking is probably in order but uh, I get at least try. I did make Henry and Ryan our AI players less good. So I’m hoping that since they’re not great that you know that you might have a chance to get something done. Good. So here’s a quick question for you what dictates the payment if I move into another one coin,

Unknown Speaker 8:42

John Borgese 8:44

So I have to pay me for gamers occupying the space, okay.

Josh Hale 8:58
hearing that somebody wants to pay me for gamers brings cheer and delight to my to my day.

John Borgese 9:05
Fair enough?

Josh Hale 9:08
Have you done anything yet? Or am I still waiting on you to pay me? Oh, you’re actually you are paying me very nice. I like that. That’s good.

I promise, I will not get used to it. So I’m going to go to where you were, I’m going to take the green to force anybody else that goes down there to pay more. If you notice, it now costs three for somebody to go down and get there.

And I think that’s a very wise way to prevent other people from doing the same action.

Now that it’s your turn, I think I’ve given you enough explanation that I’m not going to tell you anything more, because it’s hurting me too much.

John Borgese 9:53
Well, we’re gonna fly blind then or a little bit until now

Josh Hale 9:55
you might want to go to the post office, the post office will give you some resources. Now full one green, that’s No, you’re not. Yeah, I’d go the post office because it’ll give you a yellow green and two gold,

John Borgese 10:09
yellow, green, and two gold. That’s two to the right of Yeah, it’s probably the best play in all honesty.

Josh Hale 10:20
And then the next turn, you might want to go to the tea house to gamble. And that, that’ll give you some good stuff to and it’ll give you the

hold on one sec. Let me take my turn. And I’m going to go up to the care of answering.


I’ll take a card

and it says to draw one.

And that one.

Okay, I can do that. So I’m gonna think I’m going to get rid of that card. I took got rid of one that allowed me to take the same action twice, because at this point in the game, it doesn’t do a whole lot for me, it would do a whole lot more for me if I had it just a little bit later.

So it’s your turn again? You are? Yeah,

I think I Well, you know, the

other thing you could do, you could go the police station? No, you can’t you can’t do anything. Oh, no, I forgot about this. So as you move around the board, john, when you’re leaving your assistance, you can only move to where your assistants are. Meaning

you are now stuck on movements and you have

Gosh, I don’t think you have you can do one of two things here. You can, I think use your turn to pull one assistant back. Or you can move to the red to jump on top of an assistant again. Because if you move back you actually stand on the assistant vs. Letting and assisting do the work. So I think you can pull one back right now.

John Borgese 12:07
Yeah, it was able to pull them back.

Josh Hale 12:10
Yeah, I thought I thought that was the case.

Gosh, I that. I’m sorry, I forgot all about that. And that is a huge part of the game that is unexcusable.

John Borgese 12:24
Choosing encounter. Let’s see how this works.

Josh Hale 12:29
Choose an encounter. I think that’s safe. Done.

John Borgese 12:33
No, I’ve I’ve won and lost a battle to incite so I can I can attest to being in those, but this one is right here and assemble. Let’s see what it says.

Let me swap resources. Cool. All right. That’s pretty nifty. So apparently, from that you can swamp one resource that you currently have for a shot another one that encounter those pretty nifty.

Josh Hale 13:04
Yeah, now it’s my turn. And I’ve got to do the same thing, john, to be honest, I’m

not super enthused about this, really.

So what I’m going to do is I’m going to go back to the fountain, which allows me to pull all of my assistants back to me.

Which is not ideal. But I think it’s going to allow me to take a couple extra turns. Now, do you notice that there’s white assistants out there on the board? Yes, those anybody can take so you can actually make your stack taller.

But then you get rid of them and somebody else can take them.

John Borgese 13:47
Right. Interesting. Okay, so that’s it’s like layering two different mechanics on top of each other, the control by leaving the assistance where you want them. And then the advantage of what you gaining by sitting them on that particular spot. Right? That’s interesting.

Josh Hale 14:05
I really liked this game, they’ve they’ve had two or three expansions. In fact, I think he got me one of the expansions right now. That’s one of you know, it’s an older game. And it’s just kind of sitting because we’re getting ready for origins.

So I think where you are, golly, what would I do there?

I think you got to pull one back again. And I would put one back all the way from the other side of the board. I think that’s your best chance

John Borgese 14:47
now doesn’t allow you to pull them just whimsically from wherever you choose. Yes.

Josh Hale 14:51
Any, it allows you to pull one from anywhere. So normally they that the common thought is to poor the one that’s farthest from me because they’re allow you to get the most movement.

John Borgese 15:05

See, the thing is, how do you actually grab the system?

Josh Hale 15:13
Maybe I’m wrong. Can you not grab him? Obviously, I don’t have your choices right now.

Maybe it’s a card? Maybe I’m wrong?

John Borgese 15:24
Yeah, I don’t think I could just pick them up.

Maybe I have to move over to get them. Let’s

Josh Hale 15:32
have to be able to pick them up, john, because you would have to because you couldn’t do anything you are completely landlocked. If you’re not able to pick them up.

John Borgese 15:43
Well, I can move still without actually moving in a system somewhere?

Josh Hale 15:47
I don’t think so. You have to be able to pick up or drop off and assistant.

John Borgese 15:54
Let’s see it says

skip or choose a new place. Okay, so yeah.

Alright, so let’s see. How do I pick up this fella? See what happens here.

Since we’re just when I go to pick the assistant up, it tells me that the place is out of range, even though I’m standing on the actual place. On the one that is

Josh Hale 16:22
it was probably designed just to mess you up. JOHN is my thought.

John Borgese 16:26
No, I always assume that everything is designed that way.

Unknown Speaker 16:30
And I’m never disappointed.

Josh Hale 16:32
It always works out for you.

So so this is going to go live. We’re actually recording this like mid May. This is going to go live right before origins. What do you got going on in origins? I mean, are you doing a booth? Or what do you got going on?

John Borgese 16:49
Yeah, someone’s got a booth at origins is going to be quite a bit of demoing going on, we should have the prototype of the upcoming forex style fantasy game that will be releasing this year. So that’ll be really cool. People get to see some of the fancy minis in that game called the rune age of kingdoms. So people will get to see a little bit of that in person, which is pretty exciting. We also have a brand new expansion that’s coming out for the shared dream called cabins. And the you know, the prototype of that will be available at origins for people to see him play as well. So it’ll be kind of fun, the fans will get a chance to kind of see some of the upcoming stuff with their own eyes get a chance to play have a few laughs they’ll be quite a bit of fun stuff going on for origins. We’re excited about it.

Josh Hale 17:40
So you know every time I think of the title, the shared dream and you know you and I’ve talked about your stuff before it’s not like this the first time we’ve talked about it, but every time you explain the shared dream to me every single time I think the same thing, which is the idea of

what was the the Freddie movie with the dream warriors or whatever.

John Borgese 18:08
So funny you bring it up because I often think of that it is a it is a little bit of inspiration there whether it was intended to or not, it is called dream warriors fire remember dribbling is the third Nightmare on Elm Street if I remember correctly, third or fourth one,

Josh Hale 18:25
right. And I always think of it you know, it’s like I kind of kind of laugh about it.

John Borgese 18:30
And well to be fair, it’s not that not that far off the mark. I mean, the idea is people you know use their dreams to gain access to fantastic things and Powers and abilities and they’re doing it so that they could beat off their nightmares. And that’s pretty much what’s going on that movie if I remember correctly you know the the teenagers are learning that they could do some pretty wild stuff in their dreams and they need to because Freddie’s out to get them. So pretty good correlation there for sure.

Josh Hale 18:58
So now, now that you said say that it makes me think


another thing that happened at and during that era.

DJ Jazzy Jeff and Fresh Prince with

Gosh, what was the song?

The Nightmare on my street?

Unknown Speaker 19:27
Oh my god, you’re going way back.

Josh Hale 19:28
Yeah, but do you remember? Do you remember the end of the song they had Freddie screaming out on your DJ now?

Unknown Speaker 19:38
Oh, boy.

John Borgese 19:41
Musical masterpiece right there.

Josh Hale 19:43
Well, not only that, but yet I remember.

John Borgese 19:48
Look, we’re dating ourselves there.

Josh Hale 19:53
Have you went wrong turn Oh, it’s my turn. Shoot, man. I’m

John Borgese 19:57
I snuck in there.

Josh Hale 19:58
You did? I’m not used to that job. I’m used to you talking and like, not doing anything while you

John Borgese 20:05
still move stealth news?

Josh Hale 20:07
Yeah, you are a ninja.

John Borgese 20:16
See what’s going on here?

No. Symbols loading?

Josh Hale 20:22
Yeah, so it’s called A Nightmare on Elm Street. It apparently has.

they’ve they’ve done it twice. And apparently, it’s DJ Jazzy Jeff’s YouTube channel. And it has been seen

a third of a million times. So 320,000 times people have watched that video.

John Borgese 20:50
That’s why

Josh Hale 20:52
someone else likes us. Well, either somebody else likes that song or I’ve watched it a lot.

It’s possible that I could be a good majority of those video views.

Unknown Speaker 21:05
you absorb their video.

Josh Hale 21:10
I can’t figure out why. YouTube has de monetized one song

It’s just one guy out of the middle of Ohio. Why would anybody watch the video 200,000 times. He’s got it on repeat.

John Borgese 21:26
He’s wrecking everything.

Josh Hale 21:29
I’m gonna get a call from Will Smith. Hey Josh gotta knock it off, man.

John Borgese 21:39
Okay, let’s see what this card did. I’m taking cards. What these doing but

Josh Hale 21:44
I’m taking. Remember you have to pay for the cards if you’re not using them. So do be aware that you can only have I think one card and then you have to pay for the next one. You know,

just a just a thought I wouldn’t want to tell you how to how to lose.

John Borgese 22:07
Mom doing that rather well on my own so far.

Josh Hale 22:10
I mean, I wasn’t gonna say anything. I was well

John Borgese 22:14
Don’t you worry the next time we play this I’ll be prepared.

Josh Hale 22:19
fly by that john.

And I don’t know if we can do another podcast on the same on the same game having having us destroy each other in the same exact manner. It’s just going to be the same podcast again, man. I guess we’re talking about gentle on

John Borgese 22:39
the Find the game that I’m actually familiar with next time so I’m not getting ruthlessly savvy. You know,

Josh Hale 22:44
I really liked the idea of you not knowing the game at all, john. I truly do.

It’s, uh,

I got I gotta admit, I’m kind of a fan of that. And, you know,

while I I don’t think that you know, I should destroy you mercilessly because of that.

I’m okay with destroying you mercilessly because of that.

John Borgese 23:09
Yeah, I could take it Don’t worry.

Josh Hale 23:10
I’ve heard you have broad shoulders

John Borgese 23:14
and happens I could take a beaten no problem.

Josh Hale 23:18

I went back to the tea house because you know, I like gambling. And that that’s something that we have not been doing john knows we’ve not been telling people what we’re doing all we’re doing is telling them we’re moving around the board. Hey, I did this and I did that. So the tea houses the gambling place. And

I’m not quite sure what I’m doing but this is the world’s worst podcast. I don’t know why you would listen to this

John Borgese 23:47
because we are very into

Josh Hale 23:49
I I listened to myself regularly.

I listened to myself and A Nightmare on Elm Street and that pretty much takes up my own de

John Borgese 24:02
you can’t argue with that.

Josh Hale 24:05
No, I could but it’s not going to get me wrong.

So where are you? Oh, you’re over in the fabric warehouse again. Huh?

John Borgese 24:17
Alright, fair enough. I see what’s going on.

Josh Hale 24:19
Do you john? Do you see what’s going on?

John Borgese 24:23
It’s slowly sinking in I mean, you know

Josh Hale 24:26

i got nothing.

John Borgese 24:30
Yeah, it gets getting there. It took me a couple turns to figure out that I should go back to the fountain and collect my good

Josh Hale 24:37
Yeah, sometimes that’s helpful.

sometimes not.

So right now my choice is not very good. So I’m going to go ahead and spend

money to go to the Wayne right. Oh, it’s two coins when you go to somebody

when somebody there so I went to the Wayne right and I now can carry for if I get my fifth Wayne right spot. I get my first jewel so far. Ryan, who is supposed to be an easy AI has one jewel. I don’t know what he got it for. We have not been paying attention to him and Ryan may sneak away with a win

John Borgese 25:21
with being crushed by the AI and the computers have taken over. That’s it for the soul all of mankind’s finished Skynet went live. Right, Ryan that?

Josh Hale 25:32
Let’s see. And the sad part is it’s the easy AI john. It’s not even like the hard AI. It’s it’s Ryan. Ryan is like, you know, not the fastest AI. He’s like, yeah, I kind of like this game, but I’d really rather play the shared dream.

John Borgese 25:50
Yeah, that’d be awesome. Right? Sounds like smart guy. That’s me.

Josh Hale 25:53
Oh, he automatically went from the low AI to the medium and your book.

John Borgese 26:01

Josh Hale 26:02
so you got obviously you have a couple RPG Where do you get your start gaming? I mean, you’re you know, did you start with board games you start with RPG is what what brought you into it.

John Borgese 26:15
It’s kind of tricky. I guess in my family we played, you know, a few, the occasional family games, some old classics. And as I got older, yeah, things like that, you know, the the traditional American idea of board game.

That kind of stuff. Sure, you know, the old monopolies in life and all that silliness. But um, when I got older and going to school, I got exposed to RPG through a couple of classmates. And they kind of opened the whole new world and once I started looking at games through that lens, everything changed then all of a sudden, I was interested in the you know, the the more involved board games and you know, RPG is across the board, whether it be the old classics, like d&d, or Star Wars, all kinds of fun stuff. And that kind of just progressed from there all through the years thereafter, I had a bit of a fascination with them. And you know,

the rest is history.

Josh Hale 27:13
I love Star Wars ever since they introduced the Borg

Unknown Speaker 27:18

John Borgese 27:20
you’ve definitely just offended so many of

Unknown Speaker 27:25
you, you’ve managed to offend all of like, all along,

Josh Hale 27:29
so I was at a convention and Lexington Kentucky called lexicon which to me, you know, I’m, I’m an attorney. So, you know, anytime you hear lacks it just Latin for law. So I’m, I’m thinking that’s law con, that sounds like you know, okay. So I go down there, and I’m talking to this guy and his wife, and he’s explaining to me Star Trek ascendancy and how it’s the best board game ever, and how I should really buy it from him. And you know, at the time, he didn’t know who I was. And he didn’t know that I was at a lot of conventions, that sort of thing. So I just let him go on. And mean, he talked to me for 15 minutes, probably. And he finally says, and they have explained everything in this game. It is the perfect simile of the Star Trek universe. And I looked at and I said, You know, I don’t think they have explained everything. And he goes, What do you mean, I just explained everything to you. It took me 15 minutes, I told you everything. And they said, Yeah, but they didn’t tell us anything about the force.

And he looks at his wife, and says, You made him do this, didn’t you?

Wife looks at me. And she goes, I love you. She had no idea who I was. She just liked that somebody was railing on her husband. It was a wonderful moment. And then I have seen him since that other shows. And he does remember me now. But you know, he courteously walks away from me.

John Borgese 29:10
My goodness, you are stirring up travel everywhere. You know, it’s funny, though, I can’t help but laugh that it’s strange when you think about it. But everyone seems to just inherently be a fan of one of those two tremendous IPS. Like, as much as I, you know, you can laugh at the silliness of things like that. You know, at some point in your life, when you first become a fan of something, you can’t help it get wrapped up in it. And when I was a kid, you know, Star Wars was the cat’s meow. You know, I just thought it was so cool. And I did not get the Star Trek thing. Like I just didn’t understand. It just didn’t do it for me, you know, wasn’t interesting to me. And whenever you’d have a conversation about someone that was a fan on the other side of the fence, it was like two armies throwing things at each other. across the battlefield. This is just

Josh Hale 30:03
so you told me that Star Wars was your jam.

John Borgese 30:07
Oh, man, that was when I was a kid. There was nothing cooler. It was.

Josh Hale 30:11
It was I grew up in western Ville, Ohio man. And for those of you that did not grow up in this area, I mean, you’re coming to this area soon, from what I understand. But from when I grew up, there was a

Fox TV channel in western Ohio called Fox 28. And at the time, this was before all the all the political stuff and all that Fox was like a no name channel. When I was a kid. It was like you had ABC, NBC, CBS. And then, you know, the the rotten stepchild that was Fox, that, you know, nobody really knew what it was. And at the time, they were just playing reruns of things. That’s all they did all the time. It was reruns all day long. And so I would, you know, watch all the reruns. And at the time, they were playing reruns of

Star Trek all the time. You know, the original series.


I was watching that, you know, watching William Shatner be you know, the man. And honestly, I don’t think I saw Star Wars. Because we didn’t go to movies a whole lot as a kid. I mean, my family was a macaroni and cheese family. We didn’t get out a whole lot because we didn’t have the money to. So, you know, I got to see lots of reruns on TV and I watched Star Trek, and I also had a VHS tape of Back to the Future that I watched until I think I ruined the tape. And that that was my entire childhood. And well, I did have one other VHS tape that eventually I probably ended up destroyed to which I I hesitate to tell everybody but it was Pee Wee’s big adventure.

John Borgese 32:11
Hey, man, don’t knock you Pee Wee’s Big Adventure

had its place in the

Josh Hale 32:16
in the timeline. I I can’t not Pee Wee’s big adventure. I watched it daily.

So I am now getting my first job for getting the stuff from the Great Mosque. And I now feel like my game is complete. I don’t have to do anything else. I may not win, but my game is complete.

John Borgese 32:42
Oh, it’s good thing. I already got a jewel then.

Josh Hale 32:43

John Borgese 32:50
don’t worry, Henry is showing us the way by completely crushing us with two jewels and a whole bunch of assets.

Josh Hale 32:57
Yeah, Henry is a Henry’s the man. I mean, I

I don’t know what to say about them. I will say that. You know, I thought Ryan the AI was going to pick it up a notch. And he got one job, which is where you and I sit. And he has basically just told us that he’s as good as us, but not as good as Henry.

Who is I mean, in all fairness, who is as good as Henry.

So I am on the Great Mosque. I

gosh, I can’t do much of anything right this second.

I guess I can go up here to the large market, leave an assistant and get 18 coins.

I wasn’t able to complete the card entirely. I left one blue on the plate. But 18 at this point in time will allow me to possibly get my last card on the

on the wane. Right? And it’ll also allow me to start moving back over the left side of the board. Because frankly, I’ve been on the right tie the board too long.

John Borgese 34:21
Wow, that was an incredible coup, how did you swipe those 18 coins that was.

Josh Hale 34:27
So when you go to the either the markets, you traded goods for coins. And if I would have traded in five goods, I would have ended up with 25 coins. I only was able to do for goods. So I was able to get 18 coins out of it. So obviously if you’re able to do that, once or twice a game, you’re, you know, in the money as it were.


I think this is actually the first game I’ve done in two or three years that I’ve ever actually cashed out the

market. Normally I do the tea room to get money because you get that role with that card that you have.

And I kind of like that role.

So I can’t do

How about that? Gosh, I can’t do I can’t do that. I can’t do that.

Can’t What about what you can buy? Well, I’m planning around what I can’t do. So you know, it’s you know, it’s a step at a time, john.

And I


I think that’s what I have to do, I think is have to go here and take an assistant.

I have to go here taken us system.

John Borgese 36:06

It looks like you have a lock on gold at this point. We gotta we gotta figure out something to do here.

Josh Hale 36:17
I do feel bad about that.

John Borgese 36:21
How bad bad enough to give me some. I

Josh Hale 36:23
mean, I’ll give you a loan.

JOHN, it’s it’s a low interest rate. I I think of you as a friend, and I want to make sure that you feel comfortable with our friendship. So I’m only going to charge you 10 points per week.

John Borgese 36:43
I got friends like that. Yeah,

Josh Hale 36:44
well, you know, I, I could go up to 11. I mean, I would do that for you.

John Borgese 36:51
Would you be so kind

Josh Hale 36:53
I would.

Unknown Speaker 36:56

John Borgese 37:04
show what this card is showing me. But

I don’t like the way it’s looking at me.

Josh Hale 37:09
It does look like it’s looking at you with weird eyes. I mean,

John Borgese 37:14
it’s definitely given me some bad juju here. Not

Josh Hale 37:17
staring at you in a way that would be very uncomfortable if I were you.

John Borgese 37:22

Alright, so I’ve managed to get a gym. We got a gym, but we do not have a clear plan as to how to proceed. I have maneuvered poorly on the second half of this endeavor. And it looks like Henry’s just stepping on us.

Josh Hale 37:44
There is gonna step on me. But I just got my third gem or second jump. Man, that’s only my second gem. I am such a horrible player.

Yeah, I mean, I’ve never played before. What’s your excuse? I’m regularly just horrible.

John Borgese 38:04
Play for money. I?

Josh Hale 38:07
Well, now but you see how horrible I am at this game? I think we should play for money. JOHN. Make it interesting.

Unknown Speaker 38:15

John Borgese 38:17
Are you much of a gambling man? I mean, I know for myself, I’ve never been.

Josh Hale 38:21
I like to play Pai Gow, when I go out to Vegas, or to Reno, I like pie gal. It’s a slow moving game. And, and all the time I’ve played it, I’m probably just about even. So you know, for how many hours I get to sit at the table and get free drinks, I’m probably well ahead of the curve.

I do like to go play the ponies. But I like to go in person. And, you know, I like to pretend like I know what I’m doing looking at the book.

But in terms of actually gambling, and not only big Gambler, in terms of going somewhere and


the ambiance of, you know,

the event or whatever. I do like that. Um, and, you know, so I always kind of figure, you know, you go to the movies anymore, that’s 4050 bucks, when you get all sudden done. So if I go the track, and I get spend two or three hours, and it’s 40 or 50 bucks, and it’s about, you know, the same, same amount of entertainment for the same amount of time. I don’t really think of it as gambling. To me gambling is when you go out that next step where you know, it’s inordinate?

John Borgese 39:49
Yeah, I can understand where you’re coming from, I gotta be honest, I’ve always been

one of those people that kind of agree with you, and like the on beyond of most gambling scenarios, but I don’t actually get a kick out of the gambling side of it. You know, for a lot of people playing games, when there’s something at stake makes the game more interesting. But for me, having something like that at stake actually ruins the enjoyment of the game. So it it takes all the fun out of it, because I you know, I just I’m not one for for letting real estate ride on chance. Like that.

So it’s it’s weird. I always anytime buddies of mine, or anyone I’m known as ever wanted to be gambling, but I’m always okay with being around it and find it very entertaining to watch other people do but I’ve never enjoyed doing it myself. And

Josh Hale 40:40
yet, don’t you put your products on Kickstarter?

John Borgese 40:46
Well, I don’t consider business gambling. Oddly enough. I know, a lot of people probably would scratch their head at that. But to me there there’s definitely a correlation between your effort and your outcome.

Josh Hale 40:58
Generally, you’re right, I think, don’t you think that? You know? How often do you see it does happen where people have spent an incredible amount of time, they’re very dedicated to a project, and it just doesn’t have legs for you know, this year is the year of the Ninja and they have a zombie game, you know, and but they, you know, they really did put the effort and it just, it doesn’t, doesn’t take?

John Borgese 41:27
Well, in that context, everything in life is a gamble. I mean, if you want to look at something with that kind of lens, you know, you could put product on a boat, and the boat sinks. And literally you’re, you’re out the entire endeavor. I mean, in that in that context, everything a risk, everything is a risk, everything is a gamble. But in my mind,

choosing ninjas instead of zombies was a choice, that was something that you had a hand in making sure that that product stood out amongst its kin, making sure that people, you know, we’re interested in the particular art that you’re selling, or the games that you’re selling, you have some kind of hand in it, when you when you spin the roulette, you know, we’ll you have no hand and what goes on that

Josh Hale 42:10
same roulette and lead has never done anything for me. So on on that you and I are probably completely in agreement on something like pi Gao, where you have to understand the placement of cards and most bets you can actually ride

there, there is a whole lot of making good decisions. Whereas, you know, the ninja zombie question as well, ninjas were, you know, zombies were popular in January, this is February. And, you know, you just don’t hit the wave at the right time. It, it’s it’s a tough thing for a lot of companies, I think because, you know,

who knows when that wave is going to sink on whatever thing you know, right now, look at the popularity of rolling rights. How long are rolling, right going to last?

John Borgese 43:03
You’re not wrong. I mean, you’re not wrong. I mean, ultimately, you know, the terms change the rules change the interest of the audience changes, that’s definitely something that can and will happen at times. It’s just the context that at least

I don’t know how to explain it, in my mind, at least you have some semblance of him, and something that you can involve yourself with. Whereas when you’re gambling that directly random, you know, you have no control. And I, I recognize that there is a difference between a completely random gambling game and something like let’s say poker where chances part of the game but skill still plays a big factor. I’ve just never found a real satisfaction in playing that particular type of game or gambling like that I’d rather, you know,

I guess it’s just a matter of what you’re willing to bet. I think that’s kind of boring.

Josh Hale 44:01
I mean, when you were a kid, you never played horse or pig with your buddies for a Coca Cola or something.

John Borgese 44:09
Not a game on man, man, not really

Josh Hale 44:11
see that stuff all the time, you know, and most of the time, we didn’t have the money for the Coca Cola anyways, it was just, you know, you owe me a coke for you know, the next 10 years until I beat you.

John Borgese 44:23
I’ll give you a great example of that, you know, when I was in school, we used to play a lot of magic magic was really popular than I mean, it still is, but it was a big thing. And at the time, Magic rules were printed with the context of the concept I should say, of aunties being, you know, at stake for each match, so you would take your deck flip a card, that card was the ante. And that was essentially what you were playing your opponent for. If you won, you kept your card and took their as and if they won, they kept their card and took yours. And if you were playing with people, yeah, you know, you knew at school, you know, there was a pretty strict line of division between people that were playing fantasy and people that wouldn’t. And, you know, you just never caught me playing at the empty table, even though I was pretty good. And I more often than not, would win my fair share of games. I was bright enough and fairly good at the game. So it wasn’t like I could argue, well, more often than not, I lose. So why would I want to give away cars I the likelihood is that I would win even knowing that I just couldn’t bring myself to risk cards on empty. I just was never for me. I’d watch other people play like that. I did it once. And I remember that game. And I sweated it out until I do you still

Josh Hale 45:41
follow any of the news. And pretending to the tournament’s and all the stuff with magic. I never played magic. But I do find all the news kind of interesting.

John Borgese 45:56
I don’t follow it any more. Back then obviously, when I was playing, you know, myself face to pay attention to it. I think ultimately, it just gets a little stale. You know, and I think that was really the thing with me. Once I had gotten everything that I’d wanted out of the experience, I realized that the the endless cycle of looking for cards, and all of that kind of was underwhelming for me. So I kind of lost interest in it as an endeavor. No, that’s actually why I’m asking.

Josh Hale 46:26
I’ve been watching it because I loved here recently. And they have this guy, by the name of you, yo Watson obby.

Apparently, he has been a magic champion for you know,

I don’t know, several years, you know, to me, I I’m the wrong person to talk about what makes a long term champion for magic.

But he

apparently was thumb nailing the corner of his card, so he knew which ones to play.

And he’s been banned. And this just happened a couple weeks ago. 30 months he was banned from both DCI sanctioned events and MPL and he’s going to be removed from the magic Hall of Fame. I mean, it’s like another Pete Rose.

John Borgese 47:25
Well, to be fair, I mean, at that kind of level, playing with you, your buddies or playing a game for you know, shits and giggles. So you can have a few laughs is a very different thing than playing professionally. Where money’s at stake and, you know, the world’s watching so not to condone a person, you know, playing underhanded and cheating if that’s what actually went on. But, you know, you’re going to encounter stuff like that at any top to your endeavor, especially when there’s money involved. I mean, whether it’s baseball and you know, players supposedly cheating or, you know, something, even in the gaming world, like playing poker or playing magic, I mean that that’s going to happen. Like I said, I never run afoul of that stuff. Because it was never my, my, my way to play with money at stake, but I get it. It’s exciting. And people love it. And it’s kind of shitty. Just Yeah, I think it’d be tough for the people that were

Josh Hale 48:18
trying to not be a little disillusion. But, you know?

Yeah, well, absolutely. But, you know, when it’s all said and done. And this applies even to like people like you and I, you know, we, we deal with board games on regular basis. And it’s a large part of what we do on a daily basis. But when it’s all said and done,

we get to play games for a living.

John Borgese 48:55
Yeah, yeah. There’s no doubt about that. I mean, it’s,


it’s easy to feel that way when you’re removed from it. But just think those people that are playing those games for a living, they are too, but someone’s literally taking No, no,

Josh Hale 49:13
I did that. And I’m not downplaying the idea that there may have been wrong. My point is, is that

we all have to kind of step back from it a little bit. And, you know, do look at the bigger picture of man, I’m still getting to play games for a living. That’s pretty cool.

John Borgese 49:37
Sure, yeah, absolutely. And it’s easy to forget things like that, you know, someone asked me Actually, very recently was just a few days ago, and said, What have you played, you know, recently, and I stopped what I was doing and said, Gee, you know, I haven’t played something in the last couple of days, I’ve been so busy. And they laughed. And, you know, they said, will you make and sell games? And I had to explain to them like, yeah, of course, I

But, you know, there’s the business side of it. And then there’s the play side of it. And they said, Oh, gee, you know, I never looked at it that way. And, you know, are you still happy that you do it? You know, when you get lost in the mode of, of any kind of endeavor where you really important pouring your heart out, you could easily forget that. But every once in a while, it’s good to remind yourself, you know, yes, you work and yes, it’s hard. And yes, there are complications and anything that you do, but the end of the day, you’re right, you know, we get to play with games and deal with games for our livelihood. And so, on that you’re taking your turn. What are you doing on your turn, by the way?

visiting the mosque, though, I don’t

Josh Hale 50:40
think it was a bad john, so much as it was a very good way to end the game. But it was,

was it? No, no, it’s already done. Right?

John Borgese 50:54
I can live with that. I’ll be closer. That’s cool.

Josh Hale 50:57
You don’t have to close anything. It’s done.

Oh, I guess everybody does get another turn.

Maybe I don’t know.

John Borgese 51:10
It gives everyone a chance to get that final jam. So

Josh Hale 51:15
I have played it before I kind of have a theory on how I like to play. And it doesn’t work for everybody. Because some people that are like, if I was playing Joe, the guy I told you about earlier that writes for Maple gamers, Joe could have probably won that game quicker. But I guarantee he wouldn’t have had

the the simple fun of the interaction that you and I have just had. And that’s kind of the whole point of this podcast is the idea that you and I are not in the same room? Where are you right now, john? Generally speaking.

Okay, and I’m in Central Ohio, out in the country, and in New York City. So you know, you and I have a pretty good relationship, but then we’re not always able to sit at the same table and play. But here we are playing a game. We, you know, yes, it’s to some extent work. But that same question that you were just saying, of When did you last play a game? Tomorrow, you’re gonna be able to say you play this Danville, and we did it, you know, 800 miles apart, or 500 miles apart, or whatever the number is, I think it’s about 500. And, you know,

that that’s pretty cool. Man, I, I’m really excited that we’re starting this, you know, we did, we’ve been doing reviews for several years, and the reviews have just been phenomenal. We have all sorts of writers that are all sorts of excited about being able to play stuff that they wouldn’t have ever bought for themselves, because maybe they never even saw a game, you know, maybe our guy who wrote up the review for shared dream, maybe never had thought about it until he sat at a convention and saw you and talk to you. And that’s kind of the whole idea behind what we’re doing at me for gamers is to introduce people to that may have never seen something. Because there’s a lot of content that gets lost. That’s really pretty cool. I mean, you have a couple RPG, you have the tabletop game, you have another one coming out, you have some plans for some other ones that I’m not gonna, you know, leak details on, but it’s some pretty cool stuff, man. And, you know, but the hard part about that is we don’t always get to be in the same room. So I hope you enjoyed sit here and playing a game with me. And I hope that whoever listens, enjoys us, you know, shooting the crap for apparently about an hour. But you know, it’s fun being able to do this and be able to talk about it and be able to enjoy the fun part of it.

John Borgese 53:50
Yeah, man, Thanks for the invite, and I had fun playing the game and it really is a testament to what makes the gaming community so desirable. You know?

we can shoot the breeze find common ground, have a good time and socialize in a way that I often feel gets left behind the sad part

Josh Hale 54:08
man is that it gets left behind even by us, I think when the exactly what you said, you get into the thick of thinking about the work side of it. And we forget to sit down and play. You know, I’m in a little bit different position because I actually have to look at games and decide whether I like them or not that sort of thing. But ultimately, we’re both doing something that we like right this moment, and I think forcing ourselves to do that’s pretty cool. So next time I have Yon I have no idea what game we’re going to play, john, but I’m going to see if I can get somebody else on it too. So we can have them tell us how horrible We both are at that game.

Cool, man. Have a good night and my family time to

John Borgese 54:54
time. I’m sure it will be good time. Once again.

Yep, yep, you too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


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